Britain is facing a new Al Qaeda terror threat from suicide ‘body bombers’ with explosives surgically inserted inside them.
Until now, terrorists have attacked airlines, Underground trains and buses by secreting bombs in bags, shoes or underwear to avoid detection.
But an operation by MI5 has uncovered evidence that Al Qaeda is planning a new stage in its terror campaign by inserting ‘surgical bombs’ inside people for the first time.
Security services believe the move has been prompted by the recent introduction at airports of body scanners, which are designed to catch terrorists before they board flights.
It is understood MI5 became aware of the threat after observing increasingly vocal internet ‘chatter’ on Arab websites this year.
The warning comes in the wake of the failed attempt by London-educated Nigerian Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab to blow up an airliner approaching Detroit on Christmas Day.
[More]
This is one of the most savage forms that extremists could use, and while we are redeveloping travel security we have got to take this new development into account.’
Well all the west can hope is that MI5 stays right on top of this and that Obama and his crew don’t get their hands on any of these scrumbags first. Lawyering them up and reading them their rights (when they’re not entitled to any) is going to make thwarting any pending attacks almost impossible and guarantees that people, many people, are going to die horrible deaths.
Attacking the tentacles of the beast is what we are doing. Going right to the heart of the matter which is Islam itself is what has to be done. These bombers are told amazing tales of hatred and death by the religious structure, not by nut cases in the gutter. The problem is Islam and what it advocates!
I don’t really think the problem is Islam anymore than Christianity is the problem when someone kills in the name of Christ. I mean, all extremists do horrible things. And, they seem to be brainwashed with a hatred (for Jews and the West who support Israel) that is beyond our comprehension. But, let’s not assume all Muslims are the same. They are not. Let’s also remember that is was very similar at the time of the Puritans, the witch hunts, the Crusades and the Spanish Inquisition.
In other words, I don’t think it helpful to demonize an entire religion for the behaviour of a radical minority. I believe that mainstream Islam is currently trying to deal with the “terrorism” reality but isn’t succeeding.
I was talking to a friend not long ago, who is Muslim and she said the difficulty is the radicals are still Muslims, so the Imams don’t know how to deal with them. In the Catholic church you can excommunicate someone. From what I understand, there isn’t a similar process in Islam.
Sandy: How often do we see reports of Christians killing in the name of Christ. (I’m talking of today, not 800 years ago) And of the few that happen, how often are their actions defended by mainstream Christianity.
There is a web site called Religion of Peace. Google it and you will find a site that lists Muslim terrorist acts world wide since 2005. It at one time went back further but they probably couldn’t keep up. If you find one that lists Christian terrorist actions I would like to be made aware of it.
thanks. Mid island mike
Unfortunately Mike, we see it all too often in this day and age. Full disclosure, I am a practising Christian and I don’t agree with abortion, but I also realize it is legal. There are those who kill abortion doctors in the name of Christ. That’s a fact. Far too many will say well, abortion doctors kill unborn children, so they deserve to die. That line of reasoning is very similar to the radical Muslims. Where do we draw the line at being civilized and lawful?
So, like I said, as a Christian, I feel very uncomfortable with any abortion, but particularly a late term abortion. I mean babies are surviving today at six months gestation. How anyone can do that I don’t understand. I have an adopted daughter (now in her forties). When we all met her birth mother a year ago, the first thing our daughter said to her was thank you for not aborting me.
But, you asked which Christians were acting as terrorists. Well, given abortion is legal, here is a link to a recent one such case. The man’s name is Roeder.
Now, I would ask, for Jack’s sake, that this thread not be taken over by the abortion debate. I mention that case because it is an example of what I was referring to.
We see exactly what we want to see, and what “we” want to see right now is Muslims behaving badly.
The IRA has several successive decades of terrorist attacks under its belt. You can try to pass it off as a territorial dispute but then you’d have to explain why Al Qaeda, Hamas and virtually every other Islamic “terrorist” organization list land occupation on the top of their grievances.
The IRA example is extraordinary considering that terrorism is generally considered to be the poor man’s warfare. Since Europe has dominated the world for at least 500 years, one wouldn’t expect much from Christian Europe. If you want to make a comparison, Mike, consider all the treachery that took place during colonialism and conquest. Since we’re interested in Haiti these days ….
One or two anti-abortionist nutcase murderers compared to 10′s even 100′s of thousands of innocent men women and children massacred in the name of Islam is quite frankly beyond comparison to anything else in modern times. Sure there are a few so-called Christians who will say anyone who performs abortions deserves to die, but that’s all it amounts to, a scant few. Neither do you see huge crowds of Chritians pouring into the streets of cities and towns all over America and elsewhere in the west dancing, shouting and literally beside themselves with joy after an abortion doctor was murdered. What you do see is public condemnation from the Christian community in stark contrast to near if not total silence from the Muslim community after a terrorist attack in the name of their religion. Today there is nothing comparable to radical Islam for sadistic homicidal behaviour conducted in the name of a God.
^^^
Rest my case
Neither do you see huge crowds of Chritians pouring into the streets of cities and towns all over America and elsewhere in the west dancing, shouting and literally beside themselves with joy after an abortion doctor was murdered.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdGA0U_Z5qM
When it comes to imposing one’s world view through violence Islam and especially Christianity are mere pikers when compared to Secular Humanists, Socialists and Communists. Witness the slaughters of Hitler, Stalin, Mao etc.
A gross lie. Secular Humanism, Socialism and Communism have never wiped out entire civilizations or tribes, but Christianity sure has.
Stop trying to distort history to match your benign little church group. Christianity did not become the dominant religion on three continents through charity and good will. It spread at the barrel of a gun, using violence and genocide whenever the savages didn’t fall into line willingly. Christianity would not have even taken over Europe if not for the violent surge of the Romans into pagan European lands and later echoes from the Holy Roman Empire.
I’m terribly troubled by the discussion herein – the statement that Christians kill in the name of Christ? This is an unbelievably stupid statement! There has not been a case of a Christian blowing himself/herself up in an aircraft, in a bus station, in a train station, in a pizza place, or anywhere else.
And now these irreligious deviants are considering ingesting explosives into their bodies and injecting catalysts to detonate THEMSELVES???
And the politicos and their media supporters think that the civilized world can pay these creeps off so they won’t continue on their chosen paths to heaven where the virgins etc. await???
Only when the west finally addresses these wackos with it’s full military capabilities will there finally be some semblance of peace. Blow them away. Could the Allies have persuaded the Nazis to quit fighting in 1942, or 43? Could the US have persuaded the Japanese to quit fighting at about the same time? How stupid are we?
I’m terribly troubled by the discussion herein – the statement that Christians kill in the name of Christ? This is an unbelievably stupid statement! There has not been a case of a Christian blowing himself/herself up in an aircraft, in a bus station, in a train station, in a pizza place, or anywhere else.
Does making a tactical comparison really prove moral superiority? Apart from the Japanese Kamikaze, blowing one’s self up intentionally is still quite rare as a war tactic – even among radical Muslims. Therefore, it is dishonest to claim that Christians (easily the richest and best equipped among the major faiths) are somehow better people because they do not do exactly as dirt-broke Middle Eastern Muslims (who don’t have sophisticated weaponry) . American Christians can just vote Conservative and let a paid army wipe out rivals by the village. I humbly suggest that if the Palestinians could do the same then suicide bombings would decrease dramatically.
It’s creating death that constitutes brutality, so ask yourself – have Christian nations been involved in any bloody wars? Have they ever, say, dropped a devastating bomb on a population, knowing it would decimate huge hordes of civilians? Has Christendom ever destroyed an indigenous population for the sake of territorial expansion and monetary gain? And does it matter whether they blew themselves up in the process?
CRB, that you end your self-congratulatory evaluation with a declaration of war was probably more effective in proving your point wrong than any number of rebuttals from myself or anyone else. It’s as though you have a blind spot to violence when YOU declare it.
Point: don’t declare yourself above brutality simultaneous to advocating it.
Well KKK Cynapse may I suggest you ask the survivors of the Holocaust, or the Ukrainian famine or the Great leap forward compared to those who have lived under the most appalling conditions sustained by little else than their Christianity. As a friend of mine who became a Christian while living in a slum in Kenya is fond of telling anyone who will listen how it was an anonymous Christian who put him through college so he could improve his lot in life. Guess what he took that college money and studied to be a pastor and has since started 4 churches in that same slum. Each church working to better the lot of the people. Oh did I mention he is native secular Ethiopian driven from his land by Edi Amin. So please take your rabid hatred somewhere else.
I had thought the conversation was centered around what is happening today, not 300, or 400 or a 1000 years ago. The discussion started with current events, Islamic terrorism and the lengths that Jihadis’s will go to to kill westerners. There is no equivalent example of christians or any other religion attempting such atrocities on the scale that islamists are attempting today. The violence perpetrated against abortion providers is no where near on the same scale, and it is just as despicable as islamic terrorism. You will not find any significant level of support in north america for the use of violence against abortion providers. Sarah Palin was one of the first persons to publicly denounce the killing of the abortionist in his church a few months ago. The right to life organisations are also on record as being against violence directed at abortionists. Trying to make the two somehow equivalent just won’t work.
mid island mike
Notice how I become “KKK” Cynapse whenever I go after Joe’s self-righteousness with facts? You can’t refute a single thing I say so you resort to calling me something that I obviously never could be. You have no other defense.
I don’t care what you little group of people did because you’re just that – a little group. You do not in any way represent Christianity as whole. I know people who’ve put others through school without belonging to any cult or faith. I know people who feed the poor on a constant basis without being Christian or even religious. Thus, these kind acts are not done exclusively due to your faith. Meanwhile, Eric Rudolph and similar abortion bombers do fly the Christian flag.
So what’ a label worth, really? Does it make you a better or worse person? It obviously does not, since you can find any virtue or maliciousness in or outside of Christianity.
I could Find/Replace the entire previous passage with “Hinduism” or “Islam” or “Socialism” or “Free Masonry”, so you need to stop claiming victim hood. You also need to stop selectivity picking which acts represent your faith – Christianity is the sum of acts of Christians. End of story.
Take your inability to deal with criticism elsewhere because I’m staying put.
Oh did I mention he is native secular Ethiopian driven from his land by Edi Amin
You probably shouldn’t have since Idi Amin was the president of Uganda.
No KKK Cynapse you earn that title every time you take a broad brush to entire groups that you have no clue about. BTW you were right it was Uganda not Ethiopia which still doesn’t change the fact that it was a Christian from Alberta that heard of the young man’s plight and put him through college. It doesn’t change the fact that he is still living in that slum voluntarily. It doesn’t change the fact that he is living there as a Christian pastor/church planter trying to better the lot of the people in the slum. Could you possibly give us a list of all the cultural eliminations and genocides that were perpetuated by Christians in the name of Christianity in say the same time frame as the secular humanist, socialist, communists have been having their killing spree?
Cynapse – Stick to the issue, go ahead and defend the shoe bomber and the underwear bomber and the all of the remaining wackos.
Go ahead, knock youself out! - I’m waiting.
Cynapse – Stick to the issue, go ahead and defend the shoe bomber and the underwear bomber and the all of the remaining wackos.
More interested in defending the millions of Muslims whom, to borrow a line from Joe, you paint with a broad brush when you come up with these scorched earth solutions. That much should be obvious after this many years.
BTW you were right it was Uganda not Ethiopia which still doesn’t change the fact that it was a Christian from Alberta that heard of the young man’s plight and put him through college.
Dunno, Joe, that’s kind of a major detail to get wrong. Was it on your end or his?
I fail to see what time frame has to do with anything. Christendom had eliminated or subjugated the competition by the time Stalin/Mao/Hitler came to power. By that time they were throwing their weight around in areas where the locals were misbehaving, like Iran, Japan and Egypt. Good thing nothing ever came of that…
Re#9 and the video clips of a few solitary nutcases, Christians or not, with megaphones making asses of themselves. How’d you like to be charge of arranging porta potties for this lot?
Strange, I still can’t grasp the similarities between this and Chistianity.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CUezKsBCRbk
And you won’t so long as you cut off history at 1940 and view Christendom in those sanitized, 50′s-style caricatures (which will ignore the mass discrimination going on at that time). Not that this is unique – most people speak of their own culture from the idealized rendition of its glory days.
My point in my comment that people do things in the “name of Christ” was not to blaspheme but show that far too many people do things in the name of all religions. Hindu or Sikh, they too have radicals and extremists.
Re those who kill abortion doctors, they are obviously Christian in name only but it is up to a higher power to decide that, not you or me.
But, what bothers me here is the hatred towards anyone who is Muslim and anyone who dares say anything about Christianity. Cy is simply trying to point out how unbalanced hatred can be — depending on where a person is coming from.
I may totally disagree with the rationale behind radical Islam and their murderous goals but they are rooted in a very long history against Israel and Jews. They have grown up with that hatred. Does that rationalize what they are doing? Obviously not. But, as in Ireland, hatred can also be between Protestants and Catholics.
And, I recently wrote about the irrational hatred growing in this country between those who call themselves Conservatives and those who are progressive or Liberal.
In other words, we label “the other” in a way that demonizes everyone by that label, no matter what the label. That is the problem. Muslims are good people. Christians may think their religion is wrong or vice versa, but God loves them as well.
Similarly, those who support the Harper Conservative gov’t are just as good a people as those who support Michael Ignatieff and the Liberals. We may disagree. But, they are not evil simply because they believe differently than we do.
Read what I wrote about that subject here and you will see how much flack I got. It is the same phenomenon we are discussing here — the other — and it is not pretty.
I used to have a pastor that would say: How would Christ treat …..? Well, let’s fill in the blank with: “How would Christ treat Muslims?” Certainly not with the kind of hatred I read from some who comment here.
Well KKK we will have to defer to your vast experience in bigotry since you obviously display the greatest amount of it. I admit I erroneously named Ethiopia instead of Uganda, the fruits of a long day and a weary brain. However I named three separate historical events perpetuated by secular humanist, socialist, communists in the last century to which I might of added the slaughter of the innocents that continues today in the abortion mills and simply asked you to identify the Christian equivalent I’m still waiting.
BTW Sandy I tend to disagree with your “Christian killing and abortionist equals Christian terrorism”. When Islamists kill they are doing it to advance Islam. What the misguided abortionist killed did was to preserve lives not advance Christianity. There is a difference there.
Criticizing self-righteousness is not bigotry, it’s a public service – especially when you distort the truth to promote your theology. If what you support is all that great then you shouldn’t have to lie about it or bad-mouth other religions. Like Falwell and Robertson, you’re merely an opportunist and self-promoter.
I’m not answering your question because it is dishonest to narrow the time frame to the last 100 years – after the Christians already committed their genocides and took their slaves. The warriors of the cross killed far more people than all three of those secular events combined. So what if they didn’t do it all at once.
Some people are quite capable of vehmenently disagreeing, strongly condemning or harboring an intense personal dislike for something or somebody without hate ever entering the equation.
Now been, thats no way to talk about the american right.
Well KKK Cy since you are the most self righteous around here we will defer to you on that one too.
Actually you can’t answer the question because your just making stuff up to justify your hatred. You remind me of the Jewish Conspiracy nuts I used to argue with all the time who were so convinced the world was being run by a small Jewish cabal. They used their own bigotry was proof of the conspiracy. You know something they couldn’t name any events either. Coincidence?
So indian genocide and slavery are made up? YOU KEEP IGNORING THOSE INCIDENTS.
You’re some piece of work, Joe. Go easy on calling other people nuts.
I think that Joe, similar to some others here, like to re-write history, Cy.
Looks like I had a brain lapse as well. Getting a bit myopic in my old age, or spending too much time around people like Joe.
1994 – Serbian Christians commit genocide in Bosnia
1982 – Maronite Christians systematically eliminate Palestinians in Lebanon
1988 – Brazil perpetuates the Helmet Massacure against the indigenous Tikuna people
Need more examples, or do these people also not count?
Actually Cy slavery was abolished by Christians. Its still practiced by Islam and Nazis were famous for their slave camps. Better come up with something better than that. What “Indian genocide” are you talking about.
To Sandy’s point, the problem is dogmatism and a rejection of Otherness. That’s not specific to religion but can be found in nationalism, in sects, in any exclusive belief system.
The Irish problem was a mixture of religious separateness (Catholic vs Protestant) and also nationalism.
The secret to the incredible success of our North American society, relative to the rest of the world, is that it is a 3 tired society. The vast majority of the population resides in the middle class tier and anyone, regardless of race or religion or which Ivy League school they attended, is welcome into it. This middle class is empowered in elections to “throw the bums out” in the top tier.
Our struggle is against the “progressives” (just another word for socialism) who want the top tier elites to wield more power. The MSM and academia have for decades favoured a more elitist society and now we have blogs and the means to fight back against that trend. The tension will mount because it has been pent up for years. Hopefully we can have dissent like we do on this blog without it getting too nasty.
Actually Cy slavery was abolished by Christians. Its still practiced by Islam and Nazis were famous for their slave camps. Better come up with something better than that. What “Indian genocide” are you talking about.
:O
Slavery was practiced by Christians, and with unprecedented brutality. The abolitionist movement was largely British and/or Quaker, the latter group being shunned by most mainstream Christians the way Mormons are today … or for that matter “progressives”. Mainstream Christians definitely cannot take credit for abolishing slavery – many of them fought a war to preserve it.
Re: Indian genocide … are you kidding me? Really? Read the link in #11 – one of many stories about how the West was won.
The vast majority of the population resides in the middle class tier and anyone, regardless of race or religion or which Ivy League school they attended, is welcome into it.
That has been true for less than 60 years and virtually no credit is due to the bible thumping crowd. Much of it is due to the military, and a lesser amount to progressives.
“virtually no credit is due to the bible thumping crowd”
Who cares? Does it work?
Re Indian genocide: Genocide is by definition a deliberate act to destroy a people for their ethnic, religious identity. The fact that millions of indigenous died is valid. The causes were not genocidal but:
- The diseases of smallpox, influenza, TB, decimated the indigenous. The Europeans had developed immunities to them; the indigenous never had. Jared Diamond in his book Collapse goes into great detail on this.
- Yes the fighting was an act of war between the two peoples and it was brutal as it had been for centuries as people moved around the world into new territories.
- The Europeans had developed sophisticated weapons (gunpowder) and the horse (not natural to North American or the African continent) and those are what the indigenous could not match.
Hey!!! Doesn’t anybody work around here? Who do you think you all are, me?
Well KKK Cy never let it be said that history is your forte. Christianity started out as the religion of slaves. There are clear instructions that slaves should respect their masters and masters were to be gentle with their slaves. Does that mean that Christianity endorsed slavery? No it meant that throughout human history there have been slaves. I don’t care what religion or culture there have been slaves. In fact the only culture that has a moral prohibition against slavery has a Christian base. The reason the British finally gave up slavery came from their churches. Ex Slavers like John Newton who by the way was Anglican fostered the anti slavery movement. Anabaptists had rejected slavery years before it was officially banned based on their Christian faith. As for you diatribe of the Brutality of Christian… Go stuff it. What the white Europeans did with their slaves is no more brutal than any other slaving culture. Ask anyone who lived through the Nazi slave camps or the household slaves of the Arabs or the slaves of the far east. Once again your bigotry is showing and its not pretty.
Ah so now it’s not Christianity’s fault that Christians used slaves, but you will take the credit for fringe Christians helping to abolish it in part of the world?
Classic.
History is not my forte but it’s obviously much better than yours. All Hebrews were enslaved by the Romans during the times of Jesus, so every Jewish offshoot was a religion of slaves. Does that mean Christianity’s opposed to it? We’ll let’s consult the bible -
“Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ; Not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but as the servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart; With good will doing service, as to the Lord, and not to men: Knowing that whatsoever good thing any man doeth, the same shall he receive of the Lord, whether he be bond or free. And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him.”
Ephesians 6:5-9
So, not only is there slavery in the bible but it’s being mandated rather than condemned. And this from a religion of slaves. How could you see that as anything other than endorsement? Do we ban drugs then advise crack-heads how best to obtain a good high? Seems that religion isn’t your forte either, Joe. Either that or common sense.
Let’s Godwin ourselves into irrelevance via talking about the Nazis. Hitler’s boys are European and from a historically Christian nation. Know what that makes them? White Christians. I know some people who lived through the camps and they can attest. I also study genetics in populations and the Germans are incredibly close to the English (in fact, you could say they ARE they English to some extent, via the Saxon and Angle waves of migration – hence the incomplete “Anglo Saxon” description of British people). Thus, Geography and Anthropology aren’t your forte either.
Lastly, you have proven to be an inconsolable oaf when talking about bigotry. You call me KKK knowing full well I could have nothing to do with them or anyone like them. Bigotry is not challenging your smug self-righteous views. It’s rounding you up and taking away your possessions. It’s banning you from marrying outside your social designation. It’s preventing you from living in certain areas. It’s stopping you from getting a job or an education. It’s trying to wipe you off the face of the earth. It’s constantly comissioning studies to prove you are more prone to crime or less intelligent than others (in the absence of any other factors). If you want more examples, look at your own rap sheet. Most of the worst offenders were conservatives of extreme faith such as yourself. You’re no John Brown, senator.
Nomdeblog:
You’re right, except this is a “my religion is better than yours” argument
BTDT:
Multitasking is king
“You’re right, except this is a “my religion is better than yours” argument
Cy, if I didn’t think my religion was better than yours, I’d convert to yours.
Observations:
1. Christ suggested “Render unto Caesar ..” but it didn’t happen for 1500 years. However that it did eventually happen as part of the Age of Reason and Enlightenment and eventually ended 2-tier feudalism is the core to our democratic separation of church and state society.
2. Radical/political Islam does not want to do that nor allow for the equality of women. Muslims like Salim Mansur suggest that a similar kind of Martin Luther upheaval or enlightenment or reformation is needed.
3. Victor Davis Hansen has a neat saying, roughly ..” We infidels had better start defending our fidel or we’re going to get run over”. Ergo the problem isn’t just the radical Muslims, it’s us for appeasing them and other despotic leaders who have hijacked whole countries.
Cy I can tolerate atheists like yourself because you seem to want a 3-tired democracy and you are somewhat open minded to capitalism which is the only economic method that is going make sure our way of life survives against what’s coming down from China and India. But as a Christian I recommend that too is a better way to keep our morality and ethics optimized. But I won’t behead anyone for not buying into that, I’ve even hired atheists and worked for them and am related to many of them and many have outstanding ethical standards … but that’s not the “fidel” shtick that I’ll be recommending.
I’m not atheist. I’m agnostic and am only claiming that because I haven’t been to church (Catholic) in umpteen years. If you’re going to claim a specific religion then you should be about it, IMO.
Captialism (with regulation)/Democracy is the best system mankind has at the moment. Nations that at least loosely follow this model have shown the greatest ability to overcome their social and economic problems.
Islam needs to go through it’s enlightenment period, but it won’t be forced on them through the gun-barrel of their former colonial masters (and not to mention religious rivals). If anything, we’re delaying the transformation by cementing their indignance.
“Captialism/Democracy is the best system mankind has at the moment. ”
So, given your last post Cy, what’s your solution? fencing them in and let them sort it out among themselves or expose our “better” society as you put it to their suicidal tendencies? At what point do you impress upon them the error of their ways, if our way is supposedly better, according to you?
The Torornto 18 were already “here” bud. Born here if I have it right. No restraints on their Islamic lifestyle was there? Somone imposed something upon them here? They haven’t had the scales fall from their eyes, born and raised here? Someone elase “occupied” their property? Or were they taught by Islam to reject what they had here?
“I’m not atheist. I’m agnostic” … ahhh yes, I’ve btdt .. :>)
In my youth I was a Unitarian until one day someone I respected said ‘Unitarians are atheists without the guts to say so” ( the Unitarians did have good speakers though, soldiers home from Vietnam calling Walter Cronkite a liar …in Church no less, those were the days), then the prodigal son returned to the family Presbyterian church , now propped up by gays , thank God, without whom my Church would fall apart.
“Capitalism/Democracy is the best system mankind has at the moment”
Well that will never change, to the extent that it really means:
A 3 tired system with property rights and the large portion of the population in the Middle fully enabled to throw the elite out of power, without a war. Thus this 3 tier system adapts to a perpetually changing world the most effectively. Nothing else will work in the long run…period.
We aren’t colonialists any more; we aren’t imperial , we don’t own the oil propping them up, the despotic Wahhabis etc own it, they are the problem for the delay in their enlightenment age. Although admittedly we are slowing down Islamic transformation in Londonistan etc because we refuse to assert our “VDH fidel”.
KKK Cy not only is History not your forte neither is Biblical understanding! No where in the Bible is slavery mandated. What St Paul wrote was telling people how to best be Christians in their present society. Since slavery was the societal norm not the exception at the time what else should be expected? Should Paul have been writing in today’s context he would have said “Employees work hard for your wages so that your employer will see your good works and become Christians.” “Employers make sure you pay your employees on time and in full treating them as coheirs in Christ”. Does that mean that St Paul is endorsing the power structures of our present day or does he have other intentions.
Ah good to see you are finally getting desperate trying to link Nazism to Christianity. You just lost the argument since the Nazis identified themselves as socialists. Their “religion” was trying to get back to the paganism that had been part of the German heritage before the German people converted to Christianity. I can’t tell you the number of Christians who were killed by the Nazis because they were Christians. A dear friend of mine told me of when he was forced into the German army back in WW 2. The Nazis were trying to force him into the SS which he would not join. When he was 16 he refused their direct order even as he had a number of pistols aimed at his head. His reason? He couldn’t join the SS because he was a Christian. He was forced into the German army where he became a medic. He went on to a career in nursing moving to Canada shortly after the war was over.
Ah yes KKK your bigotry is indeed showing and it truly is not pleasant to witness.
Ah good to see you are finally getting desperate trying to link Nazism to Christianity. You just lost the argument since the Nazis identified themselves as socialists.
The two are mutually exclusive? Looks like politics isn’t your forte either. Hope you find it soon because this is getting painful. BTW, point out where I said the Nazis were invariably Christian. You can’t because as usual you’re making s**t up so you discount in your mind the unpleasant truths about your faith’s history.
Since slavery was the societal norm not the exception at the time what else should be expected?
From the same books that condemned:
-Homosexuality
-Piercings
-Wearing clothes of multiple cloth types
-Orgies
-Prostitution
-Money lending (though obviously God’s sheep make exceptions)
… and other things that were the norm? Quite a bit more, actually. Sorry, you’re not going to win this one – Abrahamic faiths have never followed the crowd when they truly oppose something (witness the abortion debate today)
And how about those damn american Baptists illegally taking some Haitian children out of Haiti and crossing an international border to do so. I guess their God told them that it was alright. Smells of Pat Robertson.
For those who are saying Christianity did not condone slavery, it is they who don’t know their Biblical history. Just look south as in the Southern U.S. The Bible Belt was the last to let go of slavery because they “justified” it on the basis that Christ said that slaves should obey their masters. In fact, they fought a civil war over maintaining the status quo. In other words, the Bible was not meant to hit people over the head to justify ignorance and discrimination. It represented the culture at the time it was written and, as such, we have to interpret it on that basis — particularly those aspects that deal with slavery, women being silent in church, women not being able to teach men and women wearing a head covering.
One other thing: Over the years I have been posting and commenting at JNW, Cynapse has shared that he is black. So, speaking about the KKK and slavery when engaged in a discussion with him has got to be the most offensive thing I have read since spending time here. Don’t some of you realize that speaking to him like that says more about you than him. Moreover, it speaks to hatred and racism — certainly not Christian values.
Yes, I am an Evangelical Christian now but only later in life. Like Cynapse, I grew up Catholic and like Nomdeblog, I did my own agnostic time out in the Unitarian church. Seems many of us have to check things out to find our way. However, I am not foreclosed to all ideas and various points of view because I leave the mysteries to a higher power.
In the meantime, we cannot help Muslims through hatred and intolerance. There is a saying in the Bible to the effect that “you must take the log out of your own eye before judging others.”
We all need to think on that one.
You really are thick aren’t you KKK. First of all the multiple cloth is Old Testament not New Testament. Secondly the engagement in Homosexual acts, Orgies, Prostitution and Usury is voluntary not something forced upon you. Don’t forget that slavery is forced upon the slave and it is mainly the slave to whom Paul is speaking. Do you see a difference? Not likely since you think Nazis were Christians and not Socialists.
Your bigotry is showing again.
No it is you who is thick and I’m tired of talking to you.
Put down the Church newsletters and open up a damn history book for once in your life.
(note: no disrespect meant to any Christians who understand their forefathers were not angels. Time moves forward and so should we, but revision for the sake of one-upsmanship is not the way to do it. Most of you know that)
So what have the last 30 or so posts have to do with a pragmatic approach to the very real problem of some religious fanatics or fanatics motivated by any belief who want to create terror and kill as many people as they can by any low means they can imagine with nothing too cruel to be, by them, judged to be beyond the pale ?
Selective reading of history or interpretations of history can be used by anyone blinded by their own hate,fear or paranoia that they perceive hate in others that may not be really there ! I don’t even have to take sides here as the shouting ” at ” rather than the listening ” too ” has been ugly and LOUD.
The bottom line is that if we are threatened with death by fanatics is how best to stop them or do our best to stop them using rational measures while not throwing away a couple of hundred years of progress in valuing individual rights and freedoms. Concerns about labelling a whole group of people as suspects due to their belonging to the same religion as the radical fanatics is a valid fear but at the same time acting ” stupid ” in not noticing that currently ( forget about history ) that these fanatics belong to an identifiable group is just denying reality in my opinion.
So I don’t have ” THE ” solution, and the ” devil ” is in the details, to target the real enemy within a larger and innocent population and do it accurately and fairly with as little collateral damage as human fallibility permits.